hagi
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Post by hagi on Jan 1, 2010 18:10:23 GMT -5
Brothers: Do me a favor. If you are not interested in knowing much about Islam, please ask me to shut up. After all this is a Christian atheist forum. I believe there is such a thing as Christian atheists, Moslem atheists and even Jewish atheists. These terms are not oxymoron. They are real. You may think only Christianity your (or humanity’s) biggest enemy. I respectfully disagree with you. We believe Islam is the most dangerous and important enemy of humanity. Still Islam may not be as harmful to you, as Islam is for us. In our forum we exclusively discuss issues related to Islam. Only very rarely Christianity becomes an issue. Not only because we do not know much about it, Christian issue are also boring for us. Same things apply to you. So if you ask me to shut up, I won’t be offended. I hope you don’t misunderstand me.
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Post by Michael on Jan 1, 2010 22:52:16 GMT -5
Brothers: Do me a favor. If you are not interested in knowing much about Islam, please ask me to shut up. After all this is a Christian atheist forum. I believe there is such a thing as Christian atheists, Moslem atheists and even Jewish atheists. These terms are not oxymoron. They are real. You may think only Christianity your (or humanity’s) biggest enemy. I respectfully disagree with you. We believe Islam is the most dangerous and important enemy of humanity. Still Islam may not be as harmful to you, as Islam is for us. In our forum we exclusively discuss issues related to Islam. Only very rarely Christianity becomes an issue. Not only because we do not know much about it, Christian issue are also boring for us. Same things apply to you. So if you ask me to shut up, I won’t be offended. I hope you don’t misunderstand me. ------------------------------------------------ No, tell me about Islam, I'm interested. ------------------------------------------------ I can see the points you are making and I don't want to dismiss them out of hand, but at the same time, I have quite a different outlook on the subject. For example, I agree with you that right now, Islam is more dangerous than Christianity, but I don't think Christianity should be dismissed as merely "boring". These days the Christian religion is fairly tame, but that has not always been the case. After gaining political power in about 400AD, it gave us 600 years of Dark Ages, 200 years of Crusades and 600 years of Inquisitions. I'm pretty sure that if it ever regains political power, the instruments of torture will be dusted off and put to use against those it deems to be enemies - and that could happen sooner rather than later if too many people dismiss it as merely "boring". ------------------------------------------------- My definition of an atheist: Someone who does not believe in god (or gods). That just about says it all and I see no need to complicate the issue by referring to "Christian atheist", "Moslem atheist", or whatever. It seems redundant to do so. ------------------------------------------------
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hagi
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Post by hagi on Jan 2, 2010 9:16:22 GMT -5
Hi Michael You are absolutely right. I think you misunderstood me. With saying boring what I meant was talking about Christianity is boring for us. Because we are not familiar with Christian values at all and therefore we do not have much to think and discuss about it. This is dangerous of course. We are unable to see the real dangers coming from a bigger and older religion. We only see and understand dangers coming from what we know best which is Islam. Islam is not only religion; but it is also a way of life. It is a lifestyle. It deals with everything in your life, including your sexuality and more. Such as what you wear, what you say, how you walk, whom to talk, how to talk and many other daily activities. I cannot exaggerate Islam’s dangers. Obviously Islam is much more dangerous than Christianity. Fortunately fundamentally religious Islamic countries are weak, less sophisticated and not a big threat for western civilization. I am sure now you better understand what I meant. Thank you for your comment.
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hagi
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Post by hagi on Jan 2, 2010 9:39:08 GMT -5
Are you familiar with Michael Shermer, Michael? He has a book published in 2000. How We Believe. W. H. Freeman and Company, NY. In that book he mentions Christian atheists. Page 20. He also mentions other atheists, such as existentialist atheists and others. It is a interesting and valuable book for atheists. I strongly recommend it. Very informative.
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Post by sandyprice on Jan 3, 2010 7:58:14 GMT -5
hagi. I am familiar with Michael Shermer and I have heard him speak on Skeptisism. He is a skeptic on all subject, not just religion. He will put down even a discussion on anything questionable. I believe there are many subjects that all of us should research for our own satisfaction.
I am insterested in all religions that want to grow into powers beyond their agendas. I do not believe in the afterlife or that there is a God or ghost guiding our actions. I do believe that we humans have only scratched the surface of our ability to communicate within the universe.
I raised 3 kids and I found I could locate my older girl by using my mind. She overbooked her life from day one and would not always mark her calender when she made a commitment. I could close my eyes and see where she was....Now 9 times out of 10 it was a bookstore somewhere and I could go from there. We had no cell phones so I would simply get in the car and pick her up. Locating the other two was impossible. But this is just a minor example of possible power between people. BTW I can no longer communicate mentally with her.
My interest in Christianity and Islam is why violent force is used by both groups to build a kind of Paradise for the world.
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Post by Michael on Jan 4, 2010 0:57:11 GMT -5
Re hagi Reply #2: Thanks for the explanation hagi. I've now got a better understanding of what you are saying.
Re hagi Reply #3: I haven't read the Michael Shermer book, so I can't comment on it directly. According to Wikipedia, Christian atheism is a belief system in which the God of Christianity is rejected but the teachings of Jesus are followed. But Jesus teaches "I and my Father are one," (John 10:30) so he is saying that HE is god and therefore, in my opinion, the term "Christian Atheist" remains oxymoronic. On the other hand, if we slightly "tweak" the definitions of "Christian" and "Atheist" then we might be able to agree that "Christian Atheist" does make sense - but I prefer to avoid confusion by sticking to the commonly accepted definitions of both words. I have a feeling that the whole argument is semantic rather than philosophical and we could find ourselves in complete agreement if we replace "Christian Atheist" with some other (more descriptive) term. What do you think?
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hagi
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Post by hagi on Jan 4, 2010 11:25:09 GMT -5
You are right Michael . The whole argument is semantic and it ‘s meaningless for us. I don’t think the term of Christian atheist applies to us. I quote the following from Michael Shermer’s book.
Drawing on the results of more than 300 interviews conducted over the course of a year by thirty-two Time correspondents around the world, Elson revealed the existence of a new breed of radical theologians known as Christian atheists (an oxymoron if there ever was one), to be contrasted with straightforward Nietzschean atheists: Nietzsche’s thesis was that striving, self-centered man had killed God, and that settled that. The current dead of God group believes that God is indeed absolutely dead, but proposes to carry on and write the theology without theos, without God. In addition to these Christian atheists were the existentialist atheists, mostly literary types such as Simone de Beauvoir, who suggested: It was easier for me to think of a world without a creator than of a creator loaded with all contradictions of the world. Yet another brand were the distracted atheists, or people who are just too damn busy to worry about God at all. Practical atheists rounded out the field-the folks who fill the pews on Sunday but in reality are disguised nonbelievers who behave during the rest of the weak as if God did not exist.
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Post by Michael on Jan 4, 2010 21:48:43 GMT -5
I've been leading you away from your original point - You asked if anyone was interested in talking about Islam...
I don't know much about it, so I would be interested in hearing what you have to say.
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Post by Seti on Jan 6, 2010 7:08:56 GMT -5
It would be interesting to learn more about Islam. I don't know a great deal about it, although I have quite a few Muslim friends - most of them were actually pretty secular. I once went to a meeting about religion in social care training - I insisted on attending as a Humanist. There were people from many different faiths there, including a range of xian sects. All terribly nice people, of course. But one of the Muslims (can't remember which country she was from and referring to, but it was the Middle East) told me there are no atheists in her country, everyone just "naturally" beleives in Allah. Er... maybe because they just all get counted that way? Maybe because atheists are isolated and in fear of their lives (or at the least losing their families and careers) if they speak up? PS: Hagi, not everyone on this board would identify themselves as a "brother." Nice to use inclusive language when we can.
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Post by Michael on Jan 7, 2010 2:12:09 GMT -5
one of the Muslims (can't remember which country she was from and referring to, but it was the Middle East) told me there are no atheists in her country, everyone just "naturally" beleives in Allah. I've heard Christians make similar claims: "You really do believe in god, but you're just too proud to admit it" and that old chestnut, "There are no atheists in fox holes." My response: "All swans are white if you don't count the black ones."
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khan
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Post by khan on Jan 9, 2010 17:17:52 GMT -5
When Hacı the Pilgrim is away, you might as well ask me.
Today's Islam has become a cancer, rather than a unifying force of Arab peninsula which made Pagan Bedouins the rulers of a huge Empire and sponsor of science(no really, Greek texts were dismissed as heresy in Christian Dark Age!).
Look at dying Islamic countries which use the science and machinery of Infidels. Look at oil sheikhs which totally bend over to USA and Israel yet manage to abuse the exploit workers to erect Burj Khalifa.
Islam is a dying serpent whose agony thrashing will kill millions.
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Post by Seti on Jan 12, 2010 5:55:35 GMT -5
Islam used to be great on science and knowledge, but I read somewhere that some idiot at some point told them that trying to understand the world was against Allah - so all progress stopped dead. Now the fundies in the USofA are trying to do the same.
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khan
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Post by khan on Jan 14, 2010 6:08:08 GMT -5
Islam used to be great on science and knowledge, but I read somewhere that some idiot at some point told them that trying to understand the world was against Allah - so all progress stopped dead. Now the fundies in the USofA are trying to do the same. Yep, Imam Ibn Ghazali. I remember telling you this on old forum.
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hagi
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Post by hagi on Jan 27, 2010 13:31:52 GMT -5
It would be interesting to learn more about Islam. I don't know a great deal about it, although I have quite a few Muslim friends - most of them were actually pretty secular. I once went to a meeting about religion in social care training - I insisted on attending as a Humanist. There were people from many different faiths there, including a range of xian sects. All terribly nice people, of course. But one of the Muslims (can't remember which country she was from and referring to, but it was the Middle East) told me there are no atheists in her country, everyone just "naturally" beleives in Allah. Er... maybe because they just all get counted that way? Maybe because atheists are isolated and in fear of their lives (or at the least losing their families and careers) if they speak up? PS: Hagi, not everyone on this board would identify themselves as a "brother." Nice to use inclusive language when we can. Thank you Seti for warning me... You are so right. Not all of you on this board are my brothers, not even my friends. We share something bigger than all of us. Ethical atheism. We should concentrate on that. I am pretty sure the more you know about Islam, the more you will be surprised. And when I talk about Islam you may even be shocked. But nothing will change in my native country which I would like to make some difference. Most Muslim in Turkey, or in the world, for that matter, do not know much about Islam, but they think they do. This is a big problem in Islam. No body really knows what it is. In recent years it became much clearer that Islam is not what it appears to be. Even for devoted Moslems. I will try to explain this if I have time. Thanks again for allowing me to join in your forum.
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Post by Seti on Feb 1, 2010 17:33:39 GMT -5
Hagi, I didn't mean "not brothers" in the sense of "not friends." It was more that some of the "brothers" on here may well be more of the... well... "sister" persuasion. I think what you describe about Islam, no-one really knowing what it is, could just as easily be applied to xianty. Is xianity the religion of my friend the lady vicar, who is pretty much a pantheistic pagan who happens to beleive Jesus really existed and has something useful to tell us (not sure how much her congregation knows about some of her wilder flights into the supernatural!) Or is it the religion of the Phelps family - totally barking mad? Or the aptly-named Ken Ham and his Flintstones-as-documentary delusions? Or the woolly cosiness of the Archbish of Canterbury, or the neo-Nazi-Catholicism of Joe the Rat? Who knows? (Who cares...?) There are over 3000 sects within xianity, all of which are convinced they are right and everyone else is wrong. Even within those sects, I bet they all have slight differences of beleifs. That's what happens when you make things up - everyone can invent their own god, who (wow!) just happens to totally agree with everything they want to beleive themselves.
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