How Can You Defend Ethical Atheism

[hagi]

When I tried to suggest the importance of a certain ethical values for our forum of forum.ateizm2.org/, I was surprised to encounter some resistance coming, not only from theists, but also from atheists. I was informed that atheism only is a rejection of a god. It has no written rules, no morals or ethics.
What do you think about this dilemma. Do we have to have certain moral codes and ethical values to became a good atheist, or not?

[Michael]

Atheists do not believe in god and that may well be the only thing they have in common. After that, they're on their own. There is no atheistic philosophy or moral code that must be followed. That's something for the individual to decide.

As it happens, I am a fairly conservative character with certain opinions on things like politics, education, morality, recreational drug taking, etcetera --- but there is a good chance that the atheist standing next to me will disagree on every single point. The only thing we agree upon is the non-existence of god.

Think of all the people who don't believe in the Tooth Fairy. What is their moral code? You cannot know because there is no anti-Tooth Fairy philosophy. Some of the unbelievers are right-wingers and some of them are left-wingers. Some agree with abortion on demand and others do not. Some will be in favour of gay-rights and others will not. Some are honest and some are thieves. The only thing common to A-tooth-fairyists is a disbelief in the Tooth Fairy.

So too with atheists. We are individuals.

Sure, there will be many atheists who DO agree with each other on all sorts of things - but there is no rule saying this must happen. They can disagree on anything and everything, and all of them are still atheists.

[hagi]

Jan 27, 2010 16:10:59 GMT -5 Michael said:

Atheists do not believe in god and that may well be the only thing they have in common. After that, they're on their own. There is no atheistic philosophy or moral code that must be followed. That's something for the individual to decide.

As it happens, I am a fairly conservative character with certain opinions on things like politics, education, morality, recreational drug taking, etcetera --- but there is a good chance that the atheist standing next to me will disagree on every single point. The only thing we agree upon is the non-existence of god.

Think of all the people who don't believe in the Tooth Fairy. What is their moral code? You cannot know because there is no anti-Tooth Fairy philosophy. Some of the unbelievers are right-wingers and some of them are left-wingers. Some agree with abortion on demand and others do not. Some will be in favour of gay-rights and others will not. Some are honest and some are thieves. The only thing common to A-tooth-fairyists is a disbelief in the Tooth Fairy.

So too with atheists. We are individuals.

Sure, there will be many atheists who DO agree with each other on all sorts of things - but there is no rule saying this must happen. They can disagree on anything and everything, and all of them are still atheists.

We are all atheists. But what about ethical atheists?
Do they exist? How do you define ethics when it comes to atheism, as in this forum.
I understand your objection. But I think there must be more to it.
Don't you think so?

[hagi]

By the way...
After I encountered a resistance in my site, I searched internet and found the original ethical atheist site and loved it.

[Michael]

Jan 27, 2010 17:09:52 GMT -5 hagi said:

We are all atheists. But what about ethical atheists?
Do they exist? How do you define ethics when it comes to atheism, as in this forum.
I understand your objection. But I think there must be more to it.
Don't you think so?

I'm not actually objecting or disagreeing with you, I'm just pointing out that when an unbeliever says he is an atheist, he is telling us that he does not believe in god. He is not telling us anything about his moral code...and if he DOES tell us about his moral code, he is not speaking for atheists in general.

Now if someone says he is an Ethical Atheist, he is definitely suggesting that his atheism carries with it some sort of moral code, but even so, it is not a code that can be transferred to atheists in general because each atheist has his or her own moral code.

I can see what you are driving at, but I feel that atheism and ethics are two different things. An atheist with ethics may describe himself as an "ethical atheist", but another atheist may have a quite different code of ethics. This second person is also an "ethical atheist", yet he may disagree with the first atheist on many important moral issues.

I say this, not to disagree with you, but just to throw some ideas around and see where they finish up.

[hagi]

Jan 28, 2010 2:57:37 GMT -5 Michael said:

Jan 27, 2010 17:09:52 GMT -5 hagi said:

We are all atheists. But what about ethical atheists?
Do they exist? How do you define ethics when it comes to atheism, as in this forum.
I understand your objection. But I think there must be more to it.
Don't you think so?

I'm not actually objecting or disagreeing with you, I'm just pointing out that when an unbeliever says he is an atheist, he is telling us that he does not believe in god. He is not telling us anything about his moral code...and if he DOES tell us about his moral code, he is not speaking for atheists in general.

Now if someone says he is an Ethical Atheist, he is definitely suggesting that his atheism carries with it some sort of moral code, but even so, it is not a code that can be transferred to atheists in general because each atheist has his or her own moral code.

I can see what you are driving at, but I feel that atheism and ethics are two different things. An atheist with ethics may describe himself as an "ethical atheist", but another atheist may have a quite different code of ethics. This second person is also an "ethical atheist", yet he may disagree with the first atheist on many important moral issues.

I say this, not to disagree with you, but just to throw some ideas around and see where they finish up.

What you say makes sense. But what is the bigger picture? I always believed importance of some kind of ethical values in atheism. But I am as much perplexed as you are on this subject. There must be some solution of this problem. It is a problem. Because when we encounter obvious theistic immorality, we pass moral judgment towards them. Without some degree of moral code and ethical values, we shouldn’t be doing that. I am sure you understand where am I coming from. There may not be a logical solution of this problem. At least we should acknowledge that it is a problem for atheism. Do you agree with that?

[Seti]

Jan 28, 2010 7:45:07 GMT -5 hagi said:

Because when we encounter obvious theistic immorality, we pass moral judgment towards them.

I think the key difference here is that religions have dogmas and claims to moral superiority - xians (and I suspect those of other religions) will frequently say things like "without god we'd all be out raping and killing everyone" or that xianity makes people honest, compassionate, blah-blah-blah. So all we are doing when we call them on this is pointing out the fallacy.

Atheists, on the other hand, in so far as they are ethical, are ethical purely for its own sake - not for any reward in heaven. Which immediately makes a single ethical act by an atheist far more worthy than one by a xian! Golly gosh, we don't go around raping and killing - sometimes we even do nice things like spending our careers in public service, donating to charities etc.

Atheists recognise that morals and ethics are the product of evolution - humans are social animals and could not survive outside the protection of the group, and groups which lack internal rules would spend all their time in-fighting and thus would die out. As we know, these rules rarely apply to "others" outside the group, which is why we can find so many people willing to go to war and kill people they have never met.

Morals and ethics have also evolved over time, within the period of written history - slavery, for example, was once considered perfectly OK. Now, although it still goes on, most people think it is completely immoral. They are also culturally determined - the beleifs about the behaviour expected from women, and the appropriate punishments if they transgress, vary enormously around the world.

A key issue here is that you cannot argue with someone over ethics on the basis of differing beleifs, particularly religious beleifs, when their "god" may be saying something different to someone else's "god." All you can do is explain why natural justice - treating everyone as of equal value regardless of gender, sexuality, age, skin colour etc - is a "jolly good thing" for all of us, and point out how their "rules" fall short of natural justice.

Of course, if that doesn't work you can always shoot 'em.

[sandyprice]

Yesterday, here in Sun City, I visited one of our large pools to exercise my legs and found many people doing the same thing. I normally only visit the pools when I have a class of water aerobics.

I met a very interesting couple in their mid 70s who had been in Arizona for the last 3 months getting away from the winters in Indiana. It was enlightening that we could have been raised in a different culture and yet we shared many points of view in many subjects.

They were dedicated Republicans who had left the Party recently. It was interesting to see their interests in keeping the government out of our personal lives.

When I mentioned the subject of a separation of church and state, the shock of my words sent my new friends ready to leave the pool. I was asked if I was an Atheist. I answered "yes" but not a militant activist. They had never met anyone who was not a Christian or Jew. It was the end of our conversation.

I am always shocked at the lack of knowledge about a Godless world. We need Jesus or Moses to set our moral laws. It confirms my belief that our children are brainwashed against any thoughts as to another set of values.

It clearly obvious that there are two kinds of Americans. One group believes in God and the other moves to California. Atheists are not common in California but I believe that many generations of humans are born and raised in a state where natural disasters bring about training to survive at early ages.

There are people in this city who are afraid to make eye contact with me. It is starting to become annoying and as soon as I can sell my home, I'm going back to California even if I have to live in a tent.

This fear of God is destroying any hope of a peaceful America. I need to become a hermit away from this American civilization of fear.